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| Trump's Wall | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 25 2017, 07:52 PM (2,653 Views) | |
| Cal | Jan 27 2017, 04:07 AM Post #46 |
I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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If this is the height of your intellect and ability within this debate then I'm out. Posts based on emotional fuel shouldn't be considered proper rebuttals. It's a debate fallacy and you know better. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 27 2017, 04:14 AM Post #47 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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Cal what are you even talking about? Everything I've said is true, even if I do put my emotional investment into it. -The costs for the wall, building, supplies, material, maintenance is going to be absurd, more so if you expect Mexico pay for it. - Even if the wall is built, there's no guarantee that it will work as people have found plenty of ways to get through border patrol, sometime as easy as just walking through border patrol. -Trumps entire slogan around the Wall has been based upon hate and misguided racism that the people of the USA have just gobbled up. He's not addressing the actual key issues here, he's freaking turning a group of people into villains. The same thing we did with Japanese Americans and the same things we do with people of color. - And perhaps the biggest truth of all, Trumps is a racist, misogynist, xenophobic egotistical lying bastard. |
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| lazerbem | Jan 27 2017, 04:19 AM Post #48 |
 
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But your own support for the wall is partially based on its symbolic and emotional impact, the mere idea of it as opposed to any reality about it, positive or negative.
Trump got his wall through emotional appeal and a prayer, it's hardly out of place to discuss the negative ideas that led to the wall's creation when Trump was using populist rhetoric in order to get his way via some incredibly blatant fearmongering. Whether he feels it or not is really quite irrelevant, what it ended up doing was promoting toxic ideologies to fester. Now, back to the wall, the geography of the place is absolutely a concern. Making giant walls doesn't work when the place isn't conducive to walls, like a desert or a river. Nor does a giant wall provide help when most aren't even taking it directly. To use your example of the defense system for a house, the wall would be kind of like an elaborate Home Alone style construction solely for the backdoor and leaving your front door open. Sure, you're technically increasing your security, but you're doing it in a mindbogglingly wasteful and roundabout way. Even if the wall cost zero money, it's going to be damaging national relationships and all for the possibility that it will stop people from just walking in through the checkpoint. It's incredibly easy to just waltz through a checkpoint along the border, all you need is a passport. Another home security example, you build a huge wall around your house...but leave openings into your doorways. Most illegals don't just want to trek into the desert if they can help it, which is what the infamous wall is going to be covering for the most part. Edited by lazerbem, Jan 27 2017, 04:22 AM.
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| Copy_Ninja | Jan 27 2017, 04:35 AM Post #49 |
Novacane for the pain
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The wall is such a simplistic solution to a complicated problem, which seems to be all Trump ever offers. First of all you have the cost issue, which has already come up but it's worth repeating. it will be massively expensive to build, maintain and man that wall and Trump hasn't come up with any viable ways of actually paying for it. He can say that Mexico can pay for it all he likes, doesn't mean it's going to happen. No Mexican President would ever approve it. Secondly is the actual effectiveness of building it. At present, there's fencing across roughly a third of the border (the actual amount I'm not 100% on but last I checked it was about a third). This is backed up with foot patrols and enforcement agents. These work in those areas because they are densely populated. If someone is trying to cross the border in an area like that, having a physical barrier there to keep them out will slow them down for at least a few minutes, which does make a difference in catching them. But then you get to remote locations along the border, which is where most people are actually coming in. This is where the wall isn't going to be effective, because when someone is taking days to trek across those areas, that wall is going to be relatively trivial. The third issue is the rhetoric that has been paired with the proposal. Trumps attacks on Mexican people have been degrading. People want to flee in to America for a better opportunity for themselves, can't say I blame them. It doesn't mean that they should be allowed in or that America has no right to defend its borders, but you can do that without demeaning the people coming in. Obama was actually rather big on deportation, but he was far more respectful and diplomatic. Trump's rhetoric sets up migrants as acceptable scapegoats, which I find totally unacceptable. |
 We'll never be those kids again
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| Cal | Jan 27 2017, 04:37 AM Post #50 |
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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I'm not talking about the validity of the argument-I'm simply referring to the fact that in a debate when you resort to cursing and a "let me tell you how it is" attitude your message gets left behind because of the less than ideal delivery. Surely that isn't surprising..
Trump didn't make up the wall though. It's been a political topic for the past few decades. I would agree that he took the idea to extremes and I would even agree that he appeared ignorant when presenting his argument. That doesn't however deteriorate the fact that the concept of building a border has always had a strong following within the US.
This is a legitimate argument that I will concede to. I disagree with the comparison. I would dare so the right example would be somewhere between what I presented and what you presented. But, yeah, I have no problem with someone holding this option. I, myself wouldn't put that much money into it considering what all else is going on. I just don't find it as hyperbolic as most here. |
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| lazerbem | Jan 27 2017, 04:42 AM Post #51 |
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So as an update to the thread, one of the proposed payment plans is a 20% tariff on Mexican goods...which would mean that the American public is still paying for it. http://www.businessinsider.com/sean-spicer-trump-considering-20-tax-on-mexican-imports-2017-1 I suppose starting a trade war with Mexico in such a way that you end up probably hurting any US business in Mexico is not the best of plans. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 27 2017, 05:01 AM Post #52 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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See, there are so many ways to properly deal with this situation. As I said, immigrants aren't the problem, it's the system we have that makes it so hard that forces them to take actions we deem unnecessary, often at costs that hinder them even more. Immigration to the United States from Mexico is not illegal, you just have to have the right means to do it. It's not like the idea of the Muslim Ban...which unfortunately has become a thing. It's difficult for immigrants like Mexicans to legally get into the USA, the procedure, paperwork, knowledge. Here are some questions that, may not necessarily be asked to Mexicans (though I have no idea why but questions asked to people trying to become US citzens in general. 1.)How many amendments does the Constitution have? 2.) What is the economic system in the United States? 3.) Who makes federal laws? 4.) How many U.S. Senators are there? 5.) We elect a U.S. Senator for how many years? 6.) The House of Representatives has how many voting members? 7.) Who does a U.S. Senator represent? 8.) If both the President and the Vice President can no longer serve, who becomes President? All of these are just a few questions of a possible 100 asked on the Civic Questions interview. All those question I listed, I myself, a natural US citizen, either had to rack my brain to remember or didn't have a clue. But who cares, I was naturally born here, I don't have to worry about this crap. Some might have it easy, they might have something like... 1.) Who is the current President of the USA? 2.) Where is the Statue of Liberty? 3.) What's the ocean on the left size of the USA? A lot of questions are, nice little tidbits like... 1.) Who was the president of the USA during World War I? The answer to that was Woodrow Wilson which frankly, I probably would never have remembered. I don't have to, unless I'm a history teacher, and I'll get my facts properly by then, I don't care. What about questions like? 1.) What is the currency of the USA and how is composed? What is the worth of the quarter, the nickel, the dime and the penny? If I'm going to become a citizen of the USA, I'd rather know what the currency and how it works so I don't accidentally start using my Pesos or Wizarding Galleons. 2.) What side of the road should I drive on? A lot of foreigners don't realize you drive on the right side. To me, this is a bit more important than knowing who's part of the Cabinet. And once again, that's including all the paperwork and other stuff that goes into this. As a University educated student, if I had to go through the same procedures and be asked similar questions that some immigrants have to go through? I'd seriously be stripped of my national rights and chucked into the Atlantic. It's not easy. But unlike the immigrants, I don't have to go through that. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 27 2017, 05:02 AM Post #53 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Also, Cal...I'm not sure if you gotten the wrong idea again, but I'm not attacking you. I never intended to bring you up or really your post. Also sorry double posting. |
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| Cal | Jan 27 2017, 05:09 AM Post #54 |
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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This is sort of where real life is impacted at least when it comes to me. I'm currently working for a company that has plans within the next 18 months to relocate to Mexico due to lower costs and free trade. After having worked up through a company starting as a temp-and rising to a skilled level position which is roughly 65% of my family's income (my wife teaches) this is what is so difficult. My opinion here can be viewed as moot if need be due to my personal situation but you're right in saying a trade war with Mexico will hurt US based business in Mexico. I, on the other hand am much more worried about American businesses leaving hurting Americans than hurting the US based businesses in Mexico. That may make me an asshat, but that's the opinion of an adult worker who has the number one priority being his family. I suppose I raised more of a moral dilemma for people or families, but I do hope that some of these opinions that I'm getting are from people who might be in somewhat of the same position. I remember starting out here when I was still in school and thinking everything was so black and white. Then you actually grow up and become a man or woman who is supposed to be a productive member of society and who is supposed to take care of their family. That may describe everyone here (or not because maybe I'm an old dude posting on a cartoon forum), but anyway thanks for entertaining my opinions.
I'm just being too sensitive. I was thinking who is this mother f***er. Then I saw you were Brofist and remembered that epic topic where we role played fought each other with Sasuke and that dude from Trigun (iirc). And I was then like maybe he has a point haha. Edited by Cal, Jan 27 2017, 05:11 AM.
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| EMIYA | Jan 27 2017, 05:28 AM Post #55 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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No worries Cal...no worries. If Trump's whole "Wall" works it's like... Good job Trump, you did it. When all of us were skeptical, you managed to do it. Please, explain to us what combination of costs, equipment and black magic did you do to achieve this Great Wall of Trump? Unfortunately that doesn't change the kind of Person Trump has been or that he's used that ideology to sway the people. He is a dick, he's a racist, he's a xenophobe, he's a misogynist. if he isn't, he's doing a poor job of making me think otherwise. If Trump just kept it bottled up, fine. I'm not going to question your specific lifestyle choices. But when Trump constantly brings up these...terrible accusations really and acts the way he does and it's clearly influencing the USA population. it's hard not to bring it up and talk about how negative the consequences have been. it's like when people think Obama is Muslim, and how this ideology is that any Muslim must be a terrorist or something. A lot of people don't even know that being "Muslim" is a religion, the belief in Islam. People believe this, people believe that Obama is not a US citizen. He has his birth certificate and shown it. But people don't believe this and when its so easy to influence people like this, it can get dangerous. |
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| Daemon Keido | Jan 27 2017, 05:49 AM Post #56 |
Warmaster of Chaos
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That payment plan has been frozen actually. While it was being considered it is currently off the table |
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| + Emmeth | Jan 27 2017, 08:40 PM Post #57 |
I ♥ Yoeri
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I swear, Trump is gonna use all his 4 years as president trying to make this thing work, they'll never get started in the first place. It's an ambitious plan, but ultimately a very flawed one, but of course that's not the way the big man sees it. He's delusional. |
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| Political Piper | Jan 27 2017, 10:43 PM Post #58 |
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Nope. I will bet you the wall will begin construction for reasons that Cal and Emiya were arguing about. Trump's campaign had one promise over all others, the wall. When people think of Trump they think of the Wall... Ironically, when I think of a wall I think of Roger Waters (hopefully some here get that reference ) And although I think a wall is not a good idea and that money could better be spent in other areas, the wall will begin its construction. I'm not sure if it will be finished in 4 years, but it will definitely be started. The real question is who is going to guard it? There are going to be a bunch of pissed off people who will try to destroy the wall before it's even built. Trump, so far, has been pretty accurate on what he has promised. Production of the wall will happen.
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| Sam | Jan 28 2017, 03:55 AM Post #59 |
It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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While I can't speak for the efficacy of this wall until the damn thing is actually built, does anyone *really* expect Mexico to pay for it? I hope not. Anyone that bought into that campaign promise must be nuts or a sod. There's literally no way that it's going to be paid for by Mexico. Period. He might twist the truth and words to make it seem like they're going to pay us back in alternative ways, but, in all seriousness, this is coming out of the American taxpayer's wallet. If immigration problems from Mexico were really so bad as President Trump likes to paint them, sure, I'd be for chipping in to it. But we had less illegal immigrants migrating here under Barack Obama than we did George Bush. We could stand to strengthen our borders, sure, but the wall? It's a massive xenophobic overreaction and totally unwarranted. It's not the worst thing he's done/promised to do, but, I still can't support the damn thing. |
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| lazerbem | Jan 28 2017, 05:48 AM Post #60 |
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The proposed plans so far having it coming out of the American consumer's wallet. It may seem like semantics, but there is a distinction to be made. Hitting the consumer is worse than hitting the taxpayer. |
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